First off, I just want to get some opinions from people about what gets lost in a manga or anime when it is translated from Japanese to English. I personally feel that you lose some of the humor in the jokes that are made. The jokes are funny to Japanese people who read it before it is translated, but after it had been translated to English, I just don't seem to get the joke. It seems that this is because of 1 of 2 things. Either I don't have as great of a sense of humor as I think I do and I just don't get why the Japanese find something funny, or the joke made more sense before translation. Am I the only one that feels this way? This is one of the reasons I tend to enjoy American graphic novels more than their Japanese counterparts. Nothing has been translated so I don't have to wonder what's funny when a joke is made.
This is how I feel sometimes when reading manga.
There is one American graphic novel that is a perfect example of this. It's called MegaTokyo. It's drawn to look like a Japanese manga, but the artist/writer, Fred Gallagher, is an American. Originally, MegaTokyo was just a web comic, but was eventually published into books. (Review on MegaTokyo to come later.)
This is not to say that I don't like Japanese manga, quite the contrary. Some of my favorite graphic novels are Japanese. But, as an american, I like to support "local" artists. (Local meaning American.) My Manga Monday recommendation for this week is a great example of why American graphic novels are just as good as the Japanese Manga. Johnny The Homicidal Maniac is a wonderfully captivating story with an amazing art style.
A prime example of anime being too realistic.
There are cases when a cartoon becomes too un-realistic, though. You tend to see this more in American TV shows rather than Japanese anime. (Although the japanese have come out with some animes that fit into this category, I'm sure.)
A prime example of a cartoon that is just poorly animated.
What does everyone else think? Do you prefer realistic looking animes or do you prefer to have your anime maintain the "cartoony" look? What about translation? Do you find that something is lost when an anime or manga is translated to English? Share your thoughts with us.
On the topic of manga, one of my favorites is Bizenghast, which is American. One thing I particularly like about Bizenghast is the author doesn't even try to use a manga-type art style; she goes with her own thing and it is gorgeous.
ReplyDeletePerhaps a bit off-subject, but that's my two cents.
On the subject of what get's lost in translation, I do think the important thing to remember in that is the idea that it is indeed 2 different cultures. Something is probably more funny in Japanese than it is in English because quite frankly, it is their style of humor. Which is indeed very different from ours. Which in that sense I suppose is very understandable why one would prefer ours over there's. Heck, when it comes to comedy, as dang funny as I think their stuff can be sometimes, I think I prefer our own myself overall.
ReplyDeleteMostly though I just think it has a lot to do with how well the English companies are able to translate it perfectly. Which in most cases even then is very hard next to impossible to do because that's just the nature of the comedy in the first place. I guess with that said sometimes it's either just better watched/read in Japanese (if you can learn to read Japanese that is....) unless you do a dang good job of translation, which even then sometimes you just need to get the joke in the first place. In a lot of ways it's kind of like an inside joke if you think about it.
As for the animation thing, I have to say I fully agree. Of course that's not to say that I don't appreciate the ability to create realistic looking animation either, or that those series just aren't as good as a result. But as far as the area of animation is concerned, I will say that I do actually prefer the more cartoony looking ones. Because that is indeed what makes animation so great in the first place, and most certainly what I love so much about it. Which actually is another reason why I love anime/manga so much is the fact that overall, as a majority, I think I've seen that more in anime/manga than any other form of animation I've ever seen. That's of course not to say that no one else has ever done it just as well, in fact your example of JTHM definitely looks like a very prime example of the fact that a lot actually have, and I don't doubt that there are plenty of other examples as well, in fact I could probably think of a few myself. I've just seen it more in anime/manga than anything else is all.
Although I will disagree with the idea that there is a such thing as too un-realistic. Personally I don't think there is so long as it's within your art style. Which I think Ed, Edd, 'N Eddy is actually a very prime example of myself. It's up there with one of my all time top favorite American comedy cartoons mostly because of the fact that it has such a unique art style, and that it is as cartoony and un-realistic up the wazoo as it is. It really is one of the most cartoony, most unique and inventive American comedy cartoons I've ever seen and it's an absolute riot because of it! XD
I also had a bunch of other stuff I wanted to talk about in the previous post, but unfortunately I have to do it in a separate post because it wouldn't let me do it in the other one because it was too long, heh heh. ^_^'
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I think you're right on the idea that there's a whole bunch of really quality stuff produced right here in America. Sometimes I think people get way too caught up in this idea that anime/manga is so superior to anything they've ever seen here in America that they forget to remember that sometimes, or they don't even bother to look for those quality works. I can actually admit to having this attitude myself at one point in time, and it's only really been in the last few years or so that I've changed my viewpoint on that (and unfortunately I'm only just getting started on getting more into our own works over here, heh heh ^_^' ). Of course, by the same token, one shouldn't neglect the idea that there's just as many quality works if you were to dig deep enough in the manga/anime spectrum.
I will say though that personally, even though in the majority you're probably more likely to find more cliche's and whatnot in manga/anime, you've also got to realize just how many of those series are produced each year for as many years as it's been in existence. With that said it really is kind of hard for it to be less cliche sometimes. But personally, I will say that when you do get those great gems once in a while, or even if you dig deep enough into the roots of the more cliche series, that anime/manga has produced some of the most ingenious, unique, inventive and imaginative series the likes of which I've never seen before. Even in something like Dragonball Z or Pokemon or whatever other of those kinds of popular series are out there. Those were pretty much what got me into anime/manga in the first place simply because it was unlike anything I had ever seen in their American counterparts (that is, the same kind of series they are for anime/manga vs. the same kind of series they are for american telivision as well. Plus that and I was like, 12 at the time as well, heh heh). But once again, that's not to take away from the American capability to create quality stuff either, because we are very capable of creating just as good of stuff for the exact same reasons.
@Sarcasm397: I have seen Bizenghast and you're right, she does go with her own thing, and she succeeds. And your comment wasn't really off topic, in fact, it was right on topic.
ReplyDelete@BroEl: Wow! So much to read! And I have to say that I agree with you on most of it. Ed, Edd, 'N Eddy isn't a bad show, it's just not my cup of tea. I can't get past the annoying voices to enjoy an episode. That's the same reason I can't watch Spongebob. His voice grates on my nerves. Plus, I've never been a fan of the "stupid characters" that always seem to be in American cartoons. There's always at least one. I've seen enough of Ed, Edd, 'N Eddy to know that there's more than one of them in it. You know the characters I'm talking about. They're the characters that are genuine idiots. They don't seem to have brain one in their heads.
The other problem I have with shows like Ed, Edd 'N Eddy is that they seem to rely too much on what my parents referred to as "potty humor". You know, people farting all the time and thinking that it's funny. I guess you get that on the rare occasion in Japanese shows, but it's not quite the same type of fart joke as most American shows seem to have.
And I don't want you to think that I don't like the cliche shows. I watch several of them and have found gems in them. I grew up watching Pokemon and Digimon and loved them. I would still like to be able to find the first few seasons of Digimon on DVD, but so far no luck there. I guess my issue with the cliche shows is that a lot of them play off the same jokes that previous shows (or the same show) have already done. You can only have a guy fall onto a girl and land in her breasts so many times before it stops being funny. So, I should say that it's not the cliche shows I dislike so much as it's the cliche jokes that shows use. I can't count how many time Love Hina had the same awkward moments over and over that always ended with Keitaro getting punched and flying away. And I LOVE that show. It just gets tiresome seeing Keitaro "accidentally" fondle Naru a million and one times.
And you're right. So many people are convinced that Japanese animation is superior to American, which isn't true. One of my all time favorite cartoon shows is American. Looney Tunes. Those old Bugs Bunny cartoons were genius.
I guess I should rescind my statement about poorly animated shows. Invader Zim is one show that is probably the furthest from looking real, and I love that show. So, I guess there's room in the world for both types of animation.
Oh yes, definitely. I mean I won't doubt that there is a such thing as poor animation out there, but I've always believed that as long as it's all apart of the style they're going for then all is good. From that point on it really has more to do with personal preference than anything else.
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, I'm not much for "potty humor" myself. I think it only really bothers me though when it's just for cheap gags, you know, them throwing it in there just because "it's what people like." For me, I never really found the potty humor in Ed, Edd, 'N Eddy to be all that excessive or cheap. Whenever they used it it was all within the flow of the comedy style and utilized in that same brilliant way the rest of the show's humor is. I guess that's kind of why I'm able to put up with South Park so much and like it as much as I do. I've never appreciated the excessive amounts of really, really dirty humor it uses, in fact I've had to change the channel while watching it before it got so bad, but the fact that it was all apart of the flow of the comedic style they were utilizing already makes it at least tolerable anyways.
I think I can understand not liking the voices though. I don't particularly mind that sort of thing myself, but I can understand how it could really grate on someone after a while. I will admit to being one who really likes the whole dumb character idea though, heh heh. I know it's something a lot of shows out there utilize, I'm just one who's way too amused by the stupidity of others to really care, heh heh.
I can totally understand the whole thing with the cliche jokes though. I've never really particularly appreciated having that same old joke shoved down your throat time and time again myself. It really does get old after a while. Not to say that I don't like anime humor, in fact depending on how unique and original it is, I really like it quite a bit. I just don't really appreciate it when it gets excessive with those same old gags is all.
Anyways, you guys' mention of that manga's art style (which I think has made me curious enough to check it out now) kind of made me think of Monnonoke. That's an anime series that has at least a little bit of semblance to the typical anime art-style, but at the same time it's just so different as well, almost to the point where it doesn't even look like an anime. I personally think it has the single most unique and ingenious animation and art style I've ever seen, probably ever.
Heh heh, lots and lots of stuff to read through indeed! ^_^' I'm actually quite enjoying this discussion, I think that's probably why.
My two cents is shorter. On the topic of "lost in translation," Kanon, when it was dubbed into english, had to give up and rewrite a lot of the conversation, one situation of which I will use in an example.
ReplyDeleteIn the japanese version, there is one point where Ayu and Yuichi are sitting down having a conversation, and Yuichi brings up a topic about how Ayu always refers to herself using the male forms of particular words. He then has her try to change to referring to herself like a girl, to which she fails at miserably, then decides to just keep doing it the way she always has. The scene was quite funny to me, even though I may not have completely understood it as a topic.
When translated and dubbed in english, that is an obvious problem, since words here are quite specific in being gender neutral as much as possible. So, without a doubt, this conversation was replaced with one that made almost literally no sense. This is a fine case in which subtitles work better, since they can convey the topic better for us to understand than direct english translation, which would remove the purpose of their discussion.
@BroEl: I think I'm one of the few people who doesn't like the "idiot characters" in shows. I think it might have something to do with having worked in so many retail jobs over the years. After dealing with genuinely stupid people in real life, it's kind of annoying to have to deal with them in shows I watch.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm definitely going to rescind my comment about poor animation style. It really is a personal preference to me. I think it stems from me being a wannabe artist. With shows that have sloppy animation, it seems to me that the animators are not trying hard enough to make the show visually pleasing, or not spending enough time on what could be a great show. But, again, that's just my opinion. I know a lot of people like the type of animation I'm talking about.
I'll have to look up Monnonoke and see how it is. I'm always looking for something new to watch. How hard is it to find here in the states?
@Koubo: I know the type of situation you're talking about. I know I've seen things like that changed when an anime gets translated, I just can't think of any specific instances where that happened. But I know it happens a lot. That's one of the problems with translation. The grammatical issues are going to be different depending on what language it is translated into. I'd kind of like to see how the dealt with the problem you talked about if they were to translate it into say, Italian. That could be intersting.
@Bryson: Yeah, I guess that's understandable. I guess I'm just that way though. Even in real life when I deal with stupid people or when I hear other people's stories about dealing with stupid people it does stress me out and I do feel for the people with those stories, but in the end I just find myself laughing about it, just because I find so much humor in it at the same time.
ReplyDeleteMononoke though, you're not going to be able to find it here in the states because it hasn't been licensed yet, heh heh. ^_^' I don't know what your policy is about watching fansubs but that's pretty much how you're going to find it. You can, however, pick up the Goblin Cat DVD of Ayakashi: Samurai Horror Tales here in the U.S., which is pretty much what Mononoke spins itself off from, but even then it'll be pretty hard to find because it's out of print. You could probably buy it online somewhere though. I would suggest watching that first though before you think about watching Mononoke. You wouldn't have to worry about watching the rest of Ayakashi though, because Bakeneko is pretty much it's own thing.
Speaking of which, I just completed my AniWednesday review of it over on mine/Matt's blog last night if you want to go read more about it.
@Koubo: Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about myself. I actually had that in mind when I was making my own comments about things getting lost in translation. Like sometimes there will be some sort of pun or play on words that's original to the Japanese language and the English dub has to replace it with it's own play on words or puns as a result, which just doesn't quite seem the same. I actually prefer dubs more like the one for FLCL where they just go with what the original pun or play on words was without a care in the world if anyone understands it, heh heh.
Dang! I was really hoping to find Mononoke. It really sounds like a series I would like. I'll have to look and see if I can't find me a fansub somewhere. Which, again, might be hard to do now that I don't have internet.
ReplyDeleteAnd stupid people have bugged me since I was a little kid. I just don't understand why they need to act as dumb as they do, in real life or in shows and movies.
Yeah, that lack of internet thing really sucks, doesn't it? I suppose it's worth a try if you can find internet access somewhere. Heck, what am I saying, of course it's worth a try! ;)
ReplyDeleteBut yeah, I think for me it's when stupid people are intentionally stupid is when I think it bugs me. With shows and movies though, I mostly just like the ones where they actually are as dumb as they are. I mean there are people that stupid in real life sadly enough, and like I said above I don't like dealing with them at the time but I just laugh about it latter. But at the same time there's this whole creatively surreal element to it, like "I don't think anyone in real life is THAT dumb!" and I kind of find it funny when I think about it that way.
You make a good point about stupid people. There really are people in life who are unintentionally that stupid, which is really quite sad. But I think most people just play stupid so that they get their way with things. Anybody who's worked in retail will agree that they get people who are idiots on purpose just so they'll get their way. It bugs me.
ReplyDeleteOh yes, that's definitely for sure. To go along with that there's also the people who act like idiots just simply to get attention, which I think is what bugs me more than anything else. I knew a lot of guys like that back in high school, which I suppose is where you're typically most likely to find that type, and I just hated them. Oh the lengths some people will go to sometimes......
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